Ep 188 Is Punishment Necessary

[00:00:00] Episode 188 is punishment necessary? Is that something that we need to do to get our jobs done? Is that something that's going to be helpful? Uh, we'll explore that this week. This is the Creating Great Grooming Dog Show. I'm Chrissy Neumyer Smith. I'm a master groomer behavior specialist, a certified professional groomer, a certified behavior consultant for canines, a certified professional dog trainer, a fear free, certified professional in training and grooming.

[00:00:42] I'm an instructor at Whole Pet Grooming Academy and I own Happy Critters in Nashua, New Hampshire, and plus my friends and colleagues is the show where we talk about teaching dogs to be calm, comfortable, and cooperative for grooming in other types of care. So this week I wanna talk about is punishment necessary?

[00:01:00] Do we need to do it? Is this something that's really gonna help our dogs be better for grooming? Is this something that's going to help your pet be better for things at home? Now, I want you to think about punishment is to reduce behavior. You see something you want less of or none of, and you're going to reduce it by applying some sort of punishment.

[00:01:24] Now punishment can be applied in two different ways. We could add something to decrease a behavior, or we could remove something that decreases a behavior. So to decrease a behavior, the thing that we're going to do to decrease a behavior, if this is what you want to do, to punish right, to decrease a behavior is something that the dog would like to avoid.

[00:01:48] It's something that they're going to find unpleasant, uncomfortable, and or scary. Now here is the tricky part. Dogs have problems with grooming because they already find it unpleasant, uncomfortable, and or scary. So let me ask you, if we see a dog who is having a hard time being groomed with some part of the process, incorporating more unpleasant, uncomfortable, and or scary to decrease the behavior that we're seeing, does that make sense?

[00:02:23] I want you to think about that. Oh, darn. Like more of the same. Is that really going to help us? It's not about if punishment works or not. Uh, I want you to think about it though. Punishment works to decrease or end a behavior because the dog really disliked the consequence, right? They do something and the consequence is unpleasant, uncomfortable, and or scary, and they do not wish to have that consequence again.

[00:02:52] Unfortunately, the problem that they're having is that grooming is already unpleasant, uncomfortable, and or scary. And what I keep seeing over and over and over again, and I have done this also, I'm gonna tell you, I I have done this thing too, is we are trying to make this dog stop. Right? We want them to understand the error of their ways we are ticked off.

[00:03:18] Just knock it off. Knock it off. No. Nope. Yet all of those efforts are not decreasing the behavior. So punishments can work, but what do we do? If it's not decreasing the behavior, then what is it? Right? If you, if you give the stern no, and you have to do it 50,000 times, 50,000 times. 'cause I've seen this.

[00:03:46] I've been in the room with someone who grooms this way and I understand where they're coming from 'cause I've done it too. You know, where you're just thinking. He just needs to understand like how wrong he is. Um, but what if that is not decreasing? The behavior, the behavior's still there not making a change.

[00:04:05] What if it's actually making the change worse? What if it's making the behavior worse? Okay, what are we actually doing? Could we be reinforcing the behavior? By giving the stern, no holding on tighter, pulling on the leg while they pull on us. If they're increasing the behavior, we have accidentally reinforced reinforcements And punishments are not about how we feel about it.

[00:04:33] It's about the result that we see. And sometimes we are trying to tell a dog to knock it off. Stop that. Not gonna put it up with that. Um. When really what we're doing is we're making them even more wiggly or even more growly, or whatever it was they were doing before it's increasing. And why would that happen?

[00:04:58] Because they were doing the behavior, because they find grooming unpleasant, uncomfortable, and or scary. Incorporating more things that are unpleasant, uncomfortable, and or scary. Does not address the problem. Okay? It's not helping. It does not help them feel more comfortable. It is not likely to help them be calm.

[00:05:24] It is not likely to help them cooperate. So if we think about that, like, oh shoot, but it feels so good to tell them to knock it off like, but even I saw on tv, there's a guy on TV and he talks about how we need to be large and in charge, but. Here's the thing, um, just being in charge does not mean that that dog feels comfortable with what you're doing.

[00:05:50] The idea that we have to be in charge with our pets is really outdated because it's misunderstood. Okay? Um, my dogs will let me do all sorts of things because they trust me. That doesn't mean that I'm wishy-washy. It means that I spent time teaching them that this is safe. To help them be calm for it, comfortable with it, cooperative with me and cooperative is two-Way Street Cooperative takes two.

[00:06:19] Um, and because of that, I can do a lot of things that other people can't do with their own pets. I can do a lot of things with a customer's dog that they have trouble doing, and it's because I spend the time helping this dog feel better about it. Punishments in this particular case, in the case of grooming or vet visits, punishments are not helpful because they are unpleasant, uncomfortable, and or scary.

[00:06:52] Incorporating more of that into something that's already unpleasant, un uncomfortable, and scary, just doesn't make sense. Okay, so what do we do if we can't turn to punishment? That's tricky. So we need to think about if we need to decrease a behavior, I want you to right now think about a dog with a behavior that you want less of.

[00:07:15] Let's think about it. Hmm. Maybe it's the dog that, um, um, growls when you turn on the dryer, okay. And you want less of that growling. I want you to think about what if. We can teach that dog to feel differently about the dryer and drying. What if teaching them to calm, comfortable and cooperative actually helps them to not feel like they need to growl at you?

[00:07:45] Okay. This is, this is a much more effective way to work on things. Behavior happens for a reason. We need to figure out the reason. We need to figure out why. What is the why of this behavior? Why is the dog doing this? We can't just squash it and tell him no. Um, and honestly, I know this is gonna sound very, very cheeky.

[00:08:08] If it worked, we wouldn't have dog trainers, right? Oh, I told him no, he's never done it since. Right? Like, we know it doesn't work. It might work some of the time in some situations. On the 5000th repetition, but it's not a really effective way to get things done. What I think it is, is that culturally we tend to think that if we say no, the dog will eventually understand what we're talking about.

[00:08:39] But that's us thinking about a word. Dog's not gonna understand that word. Okay. It's, it's far more intricate than that. So we need to think about. If this dog is showing us a behavior we don't want, why, why is he doing that behavior? What purpose does that behavior serve? We'll talk about that more in the next part.

[00:09:03] I hope you're enjoying the show, and if you do enjoy the show, tell someone else. So let's talk about this point where, um, we see a behavior that we don't want, and why is the dog doing it? Why? What possible reason could they have for behaving like this? That has nothing to do with their amount of respect for you?

[00:09:27] Right? It's not about if they respect you or not. It's really about why are they behaving this way? There's a reason maybe that noise is something very startling. Maybe they have been held down by five people for a nail trim before. Okay. I think we've all seen that. Um, you know, maybe that's, that's the reason why they see nail clippers come out and they have a response to it and telling them how wrong they are and how disappointed we are is not going to decrease that response.

[00:10:02] It's not gonna make it any better. And our purpose, our goal is to help them understand that this is safe. So if we are going to use a punishment to decrease that behavior. What we're probably gonna do is make it worse. And I say that in the grooming context. Okay. The truth is, is that punishments can work.

[00:10:24] Of course they can. But in this particular venue, and we're talking about cooperative care, when we're talking about teaching them to be comfortable with people doing stuff on them, to them around them with stuff and things, right? Punishments are not gonna be very effective for that. Because they find it unpleasant, uncomfortable, and or scary.

[00:10:48] Now, if we were teaching rattlesnake avoidance training, maybe I would feel differently about that, but this is about dog grooming. Most of our problems are because it's unpleasant, uncomfortable, and or scary. Incorporating more just simply does not make sense at all. At all. Um, so I want you to think about if we.

[00:11:12] Can find some reason why the dog behaves this way, and then if we find a reason why this dog is behaving this way, is there something we can do to help? What can we do to help this dog be calm, comfortable, and cooperative? There must be something, there must be something that we can do to help this dog, and part of that mindset has to shift.

[00:11:36] At every stage when you see a dog having a problem, I want you to see it as they are having a problem, not giving you a problem. And how can you help them be better? How can you help them learn that this is safe? Learn that they can trust you, and that you know the world's not gonna end. It's just haircut.

[00:11:56] It's just grooming. It's just dryers. It's just soapy water. It's not gonna be that scary.

[00:12:10] So how can we learn to help them? How can we help them feel comfortable with it? Feel comfortable. That's really important. So instead of thinking about, I need to tell him how wrong he is, and if I tell him no, he will knock it off. But what happens next? What happens next? Let's talk about that too. So let's say, um, you have a dog who's being wiggly.

[00:12:37] You pick up their foot and they're wiggling away, and you hold on tighter and you tell him, no, Annie wiggles even harder happens all the time. Happens all the time. He wiggles harder and you hold on tighter, and you tell him no. Now he wiggles and maybe screams or maybe growls, and you're like, no, I will not put, I'll put that.

[00:12:58] I am in charge here. You know, and the dog gets worse. Worse. Worse. And it's so predictable, right? The dog is having a hard time. So instead, let's think about why is the dog responding that way? What happened? Why did the dog feel the need to wiggle? And maybe it's because it's physically uncomfortable.

[00:13:23] Maybe we have touched something on their paw that's sore. Maybe we lifted up that one foot and now they're balancing on a sore foot. Maybe they've never had anybody touch their foot like that before and it's brand new and a little bit scary. We need to plant the seeds for future grooming. This moment matters right now in this moment with the dog who is wiggling.

[00:13:48] This moment is a point where we can either teach the dog that this isn't scary by backing off and maybe thinking about why they did it and how we can help or. Make it worse by holding on tighter and telling 'em no. So it's a point, a decision point that we can think about, okay, in that moment, can I help this dog have a better time?

[00:14:14] Now, I know sometimes we as groomers have been taught that we need to get the job done, and I have a whole bunch of episodes about talking to owners about safety policies and how behavior problems or safety problems. Part of why we do that is so that we can free ourselves up to not promise perfection, okay?

[00:14:36] Don't let owners tell you how to do your job. Owners, you're groomer. If they say they couldn't get something completed today, it's not because they're not a great groomer, it's because they're your dog is having difficulty with it. We need to put a stop to that. Stop trying to put perfect trims on dogs who are clearly telling us that they are uncomfortable.

[00:15:02] So if you go back to past episodes, safety policies for questions to ask owners, things like that, to help you have it already in your head with an owner, you may not get perfection today. It's okay to send a dog home less than perfect. It's okay to make a plan with an owner and say. Based on what you've told me already, and I've never met him, we are not going to attempt a full groom today.

[00:15:31] We're gonna go ahead and try to do a couple of things, see if we can help him feel better about it and work toward perfection later. Okay? It's okay to say no to owners. It's okay to say That's not something I can give you. All right. And because. If your dog isn't ready, I really want your dog to be ready.

[00:15:54] I like doing perfect trims. I really, really like, well-groomed dogs, but if your dog isn't ready, it does not help your dog become good for this. That dog is gonna live for 15 years. Right now it is 20 23, 15 years. A 15 year lifespan. Puppies being born right now are gonna be being groomed until 2038. Why would you fight with a dog for its whole life?

[00:16:24] It doesn't make any sense to me. Okay. We need to think about the big picture. The big picture isn't today. The big picture is a lifetime of dog grooming, a lifetime of meeting this particular animal's healthcare needs. That's nails, that's baths, that's, um, perhaps needing eye medication or ear medication someday.

[00:16:47] Or even their owners being able to help take care of them at home, doing their brushing, um, wiping their feet off when they come out of the snow. I want you to think about the variety of things that this dog needs to be comfortable with. We really push some boundaries with dog grooming and everybody out there who is not a dog groomer, um, everybody thinks they know what dog groomers do, but you probably have a blind spot.

[00:17:13] There are a lot of things that dog groomers do that people do not think about. Um, if you are not a dog groomer, I want you to ponder this for a minute. You are going to walk over to somebody who has told you, oh no, he's great. He would never, ever buy, blah, blah, blah. You know, and he's a little bit spicy or whatever, and you're gonna reach down and pick that dog up.

[00:17:37] Let me ask you, if you're not a dog groomer, how often have you reached down and picked up a strange dog? Have you done it? Have you picked one up? Have you tried to hold their attention for an hour or an hour and a half? Probably not. Probably not. There are some interesting and unique things to dog grooming that make it particularly challenging, and I would argue differently challenging than vet visits.

[00:18:03] Now, I don't wanna downplay how challenging a vet visit can be. But for dog grooming, we go over every little teeny, tiny bit and piece of that dog, right? We are all over that dog multiple times with water, with shampoo, with conditioner, with towels, with dryers, with brushes, with combs, with we are all over that dog.

[00:18:24] Every little teeny tiny speck of that dog is gonna get touched by us, and we're gonna hold their attention for longer than anybody else in their world probably does. Now, I will say this, and it's gonna sound a little bit surprising to some of you. If we work on teaching a dog to be good for grooming, we are also teaching them to be better and more comfortable for vet visits, but not necessarily the other way around because vet visits have some challenges, but they are short duration.

[00:18:59] Short duration, and maybe once or twice. Once or twice doing something, um, even something like blood drawing or putting in an IV is not as challenging as, you know, taking that dog and doing all these things for an hour, an hour and a half, not as challenging. I say that as a form of vet tech. Believe me, if we teach dogs to be good for grooming, dog grooming runs them through the full range of motion.

[00:19:24] Um, it holds their attention longer. Um, it really tests their patience. Um. And it's also touching them everywhere. Okay, so there's a real reason to invest in teaching dogs to be good for grooming. If you're an owner, it's really important for you to make sure your groomer is working toward teaching your dog to be calm, comfortable, and cooperative, and also that your veterinarian is on board with that.

[00:19:52] If it's not a medical emergency, it does not need to be completed today. If you wanna know more about what I do and what I teach, please go to creating great grooming dogs.com or master groomer behavior specialist.com. If you wanna know more about the classes that I teach, that's an online program, um, that is through Whole Pet Grooming Academy, whole pet nh.com.