Ep 180 Humane Treatment

[00:00:00] Episode, 180 of the show. This week, we are talking about humane treatment. That whole idea of. I'm not hurting him. This needs to be done this is really important let's talk a little bit more about some of the humane aspects that we have to look at as groomers as veterinarians as vet techs and as owners when we have medical problems that we need to look at

[00:00:22] This is the creating great grooming dog show. I'm Chrissy Neumyer Smith. I'm a certified professional groomer, a certified behavior consultant for canines, certified professional dog trainer, a master groomer behavior specialist, a free certified trainer. I'm also an instructor at whole pet grooming academy and the owner of happy critters in Nashua, New Hampshire. And this, my friends and colleagues, is the show where grooming and training meet.

[00:00:50] If you're enjoying the show, please remember to subscribe, to share it, to follow. And also please leave me a review. I need more reviews.

[00:01:02] This week. I want to take on this idea of we're not hurting him. I am doing this because I saw the video where it was a dog being held and he was screaming and he's twisting and someone's trying to clip the mats off of him. And I know that this is so common and I looked at the comments and I looked at the way that groomers were talking about it and others were talking about it that, listen, we're not hurting him.

[00:01:28] It's really important for us to get these mats off. Um, here's the thing.

[00:01:34] You cannot tell me that that dog has, there's no way for that dog to get hurt. All right. There's a really good chance. You are actually hurting that dog. Now, what we're really meaning to say. Is, we're not trying to hurt your dog. And that's important. Okay. Growers who do that are just kind of in this mindset that we need to get this done. And it is so important that we get this done. We need to get these mats off of him.

[00:01:59] And I know where you're coming from because I have been there before. I have been there before where you're just thinking, this is in this dog's best interest. I need to help get this dog skin healthy. I have to help get these mats off, or I have to help with this, getting this mats out, whatever it is.

[00:02:17] I have to do this grooming process, or maybe it's this veterinary process or whatever. To help this dog be healthy. But I'm going to throw in there. We have some humane aspects we need to think about. Is this a medical emergency? In that moment. Is it a medical emergency where this animal? Absolutely. Without a shred of a doubt, must have this done for them.

[00:02:41] Is this to stop bleeding. Is this to support a broken limb while you bring them to the vet. Is this too. Um, maybe get something, you know, stabilized. What is the purpose? Because if it's just to take off mats, Unfortunately, that is not a medical emergency. Now I know. And listen, like I said, I listened to so many of the comments that groomers were making like, well, they just don't understand what we do.

[00:03:11] And I hear you. I do. Because there was a time when I also thought that this is in this dog's best interest. But once we know that you can teach dogs to be good for grooming. Then suddenly, you know what, maybe this is not in this dog's best interest today. Okay. We can teach them to be good. We can teach them to trust us. We can teach them that it's safe and it's a lot faster than you might think it is. But to do that, we need to let go of this idea of holding them down and getting it done.

[00:03:42] Is is the version that we've been going with for so long, for so long. That causes more of our problems. If we teach them to be good for it, you might be surprised at how quickly some of these dogs can be good for it. If you tell owners. This is unsafe. Right. That's how we get owners to change for us. Tell them it's unsafe.

[00:04:06] Don't tell them I'm not hurting him. Say, yeah, your dog could get hurt doing this. This is why we don't do it that way. This is why I don't recommend this. Right. I want to teach your dog that this is safe. And if it's actually a medical emergency at this point, then maybe the veterinarian needs to sedate that dog as if for surgery to get these mats off or to do whatever needs to be done. And then we go back and we start training dog training, teach your dog to be good for it.

[00:04:38] Is the brush your dog of the dog training world. Yes, we can teach them to be good for it. Now I know for a lot of groomers, we're assuming that owners won't. And I hear you. There are a lot of owners who are like, oh, I'm not going to train my dog for my groomer. Oh, you're not doing it for me. You're not training your dog for me, you're training your dog so that you can use my services.

[00:05:02] Everybody take a deep breath. Ah, Let it out. Right. They're not, we're not asking them to train the dog for us. These dogs aren't well-prepared for the services that we offer. Now we're trying to help them solve their problem by teaching their dog to be good for it. So when we hold a dog down, I know that we're thinking.

[00:05:24] And in many, many cases, right? I know some of you don't do it this way. Some of you have never learned it that way, but for many of us, this is the way we learned. And it comes from the 19 hundreds. Okay. And I really want to point that out the 19 hundreds, I have been fighting this fight for 25 years saying guys, I know there's a way we can teach dogs to be better.

[00:05:43] I'm not the only one. There are lots of us teaching dogs to be good. So think about, is it in the dog's best interest? To get this done today. If it terrifies the dog, if we're literally teaching the dog to hate it. Is that in our best interest. And is it in the doc's best interest? Because dogs have grooming needs their entire life.

[00:06:05] Their entire life. So to teach them to be good for it is really going to be what pulls them in like, oh, this isn't scary and this is how I need to behave. And we can do that remarkably. Actually, if we let go of traumatizing them every time. Okay. Lovingly and gently and patiently. Traumatizing dogs because we've been doing it for decades. We're still acting like it's the 19 hundreds. It's 20, 23. As of this recording. It's February of 2023.

[00:06:38] We need to get away from it. We really do. Okay. Since the nineties, I've been trying to get glimmers to stop doing that. Stop stop. We can teach them to be good. So here are a couple of things I hear. Um, and as far as the we're not hurting him, You really literally cannot tell if you're hurting that dog sometimes because they are so adrenalized in that moment, you put them on the floor. They're not limping.

[00:07:04] Right. That adrenaline is coursing through their body. They're feeling no pain. They're just in react mode. Okay. Next day when they're limping is when owners call you. And you're like, I don't know. He left here. Fine. But he got hurt during that groom and it happens a lot. It happens a lot. And that's preventable. Okay. Behavior problems are when dogs get hurt, people get hurt. Equipment gets broken and owners get very upset and they come out to destroy your business.

[00:07:31] Have a zero. Policy about it. Like, no, not holding your dog down to do this. If anything else. If you're not sold yet on the idea of making it more pleasant for dogs, I can understand that. And I want to work toward that. All right. Stick with me. And I'll, I'll draw you to my side. But. Even if you're not, it is simply good business.

[00:07:55] Simply good business, a dog that is flailing around that you're forcing trims on is very likely to get hurt and you are very likely to run up a huge vet bill. And the owners are going to be upset. And you're going to get hurt too, or your equipment. Is going to get broken and if you get hurt, Tell you, what if that dog bites your nose off and chokes to death on it? They're going to come after you for it thinking you're mean how dare she choke my dog out with her own nose. They don't care that you got hurt.

[00:08:23] That's all I could choke to death on your finger and they'd be like, she was abusive. I took him to a professional, right. The bigger picture guys the day after an accident is when it all becomes very, very clear. I don't need to put up with that groomers, stop putting up with that. It's not about, well, maybe Chrissy, doesn't see the kind of dogs that we see.

[00:08:45] All right. So actually let's address that because that's one that I hear once in a while. Well, how will you, how would you handle a dog who's screaming and flailing and, and biting at you? That's the wrong question. I don't let them get to that point. And I do not continue a groom. If a dog is like that.

[00:09:03] That's already so far over the top. That's so past calm, comfortable, and cooperative that we do not continue at that point. And then everyone says, well, maybe you don't work with the kind of dogs I work with. I do. I do, but if you are doing it right, if you're trying to help them remain calm, comfortable, and cooperative, you let go of the idea of getting perfect trims.

[00:09:27] Let go of it. Oh, let it go. And what you do instead is you focus in on how can I help this dog learn to trust me and learn that it's okay. And then learn how to behave. Membership emotional part first. That's the trust part, feel safe. Feel, feel like you can trust me. Then how to behave, how to be good.

[00:09:49] And I don't, if there's flailing around and they're screaming. All right. That's the traumatized dog. You're traumatizing that dog. All right. And you're not doing it to be mean, okay. Groomers, who do this are not being mean. I know I have been there. But it is misguided. That is not the long game. That dog is never, ever, ever going to learn to like it that way.

[00:10:12] And you might think I don't care if he learns to like it or not. But let me ask you this too, because I hear this a lot. But I work with a lot of dogs with behavior problems. Okay. And I hear that a lot. But the next question is how many of your really, really great dogs used to be your dogs with behavior problems?

[00:10:34] That's a much more telling piece of information. Okay. I don't have any dogs that are continuous behavior problems, their entire life. No, we always reach a point where we've worked beyond it. Maybe even if they have dementia, we have some stuff that we put into place. So that dog does not get stress. That is not an unsafe situation. That dog is going to be just fine and I can get whatever we need to get done.

[00:10:59] Or we can change up what that dog is going to need to get done. Okay. We're talking like. Dementia things like that, dogs that really are not going to respond well to lots of training. Some of our older dogs, you know, like, okay, I can get that job done. Without. Having a dog screaming, flailing, flipping around. That's not what we do. We need to stop that. Okay.

[00:11:25] In the grooming industry, guys. That is the problem and that dog's going to get hurt dogs die that way. Dog should not be dying during dog grooming, unless it just happened to be their time is up. Okay. I mean, sometimes that happens, but they should not be dying in grooming accidents. Okay. And if you are still fighting with dogs,

[00:11:46] Doing it that way. We have decades of information showing that many of us. I have been teaching dogs to be good for it. So the question comes in. Is it really an accident? Or is it negligence? I know that's a tough one. And we'll talk about that in the next part.

[00:12:04] If you're enjoying the.

[00:12:09] If you're enjoying the show, please remember to subscribe, to follow into, share it with everyone. And I would love some new reviews.

[00:12:18] To introduce groomers to some of the stuff that we're doing in the dog training industry. So when faced with a behavior problem, with a behavior that we would like to change. Generally right now. It's still debated hotly amongst dog trainers, but the positive reinforcement camp that I tend to spend most of my time with.

[00:12:41] Um, as a positive reinforcement trainer. What I find is that. Um, most of us are switching to Lima principles, least intrusive, minimally aversive. What that means is, is when we see a behavior problem or behavior that we want to change, we start thinking, what is the most dog friendly way to fix that?

[00:13:06] And that's a little bit different than many of us were taught. And I'm also gonna address it here too. I'm what's called a crossover trainer, nobody crossover trainer in the dog training world means someone who started off with a lot of, um, in my case, it was Cho colors and pinch colors, the prong callers, and the show callers.

[00:13:24] Um, dominance theory, a lot of that stuff. And that was in 86 when I started working with dogs. And that was pretty common. And then later on, I crossed over to more positive reinforcement type based in techniques. Now, what I will say is if you had told me what I was doing was cruel. I absolutely would have bucked against that.

[00:13:48] I am not being cruel. I'm teaching this dog how to walk on a leash. This is going to help him be in a happy home. Or I'm not being cruel. I need to get this mat off of this dog's face. This is for his own good. Um, but, and here's the thing. That wouldn't have reached me. What did reach me is someone saying, did you know that there's this other way of doing it?

[00:14:09] And it's a lot less stressful for the dog. And a lot safer for us and for the dog, because it's a lot less stressful. And that's what really made me change it. I don't remember ever deciding I wasn't going to use Cho colors or prong colors anymore. I just remember switching to other methods. And I'm not just blindly switching, but to, to listen to what people had to say and go.

[00:14:33] All right. I think that makes sense to me. Um, so when we do things like that, What we think about is, is this really going to meet our goal? Now here's where goal comes in as a dog groomer. Generally we're thinking our goal is I just don't want him to bite me and I want this trim to look nice. But what if the goal is different?

[00:14:56] What if the goal is I want this dog to trust me and feel comfortable with it so that I can do nice trims on this dog for their entire lifetime. Oh, well, that's a very different goal. Right. And that's why when people say I don't really care how my dog feels about it, I don't care what he, how he feels. I don't care what he thinks, except that the dog who is a joy to groom.

[00:15:18] Actually feels comfortable with it. And they know how to behave. That's why they're a joy to grim. I know, and we all go wait. Oh. And then that's where a lot of. A lot of groomers and a lot of trainers are like, wait, what? Wait, what. Oh, shoot. Yeah, I think I do like that when I have seen it. I do like it.

[00:15:38] So what if we make that our goal? Go beyond. I don't want him to bite me. Get into, I want him to feel comfortable with it. So if we want to help dogs be good for grooming. When we think about it that way, what do we really want? We want them to be calm, comfortable, and cooperative. That's why I say it's so often.

[00:15:58] It's calm, comfortable, and cooperative. That's what that creating great grooming dogs. What that great grooming dog looks like. And our goal to create that. Which is why we came up with the name of the show, creating great grooming dogs. Cause they aren't necessarily born that way. To get that great grooming dog. That dog who is really a joy to groom is all about teaching them.

[00:16:19] What's acceptable and to be comfortable with it. Right. Not to always be on guard, not to hate it and just simply not fight us. I'm not going to bite you, but I hate it. I hate it. I hate it. You know, It's actually teach them to be comfortable with it. And that is a much kinder point of view. These dogs are going to get groomed every four to eight weeks for 15 years.

[00:16:43] So, let me throw it out there. Right now it is February of 2023 and dogs that are born this year, dogs that are being born right now. Are going to be getting groomed until 2038. Do you want to argue with that dog fight with that dog? Every single growing until 2038. That's madness. It doesn't even make any sense.

[00:17:08] Okay. A lot of groomers are getting beat up. A lot of dogs are getting hurt because this idea of we're just gonna force it. And get it done. Isn't really helpful. It's not dog-friendly, it's actually very intrusive and very diversive. So least intrusive, minimally aversive is about helping dogs feel better about it. And thinking about the experience that they're having. And I know someone out there is like, that's very granola, crunchy. Woo.

[00:17:38] And maybe it is, maybe it is however. I have a whole lot of dogs that are really good for grooming that started off as behavior cases. And the proof is in the pudding. Right. So if you don't have any dogs that you've been able to successfully turn around and like grooming. Then maybe this is. Okay.

[00:18:00] I want to share this with you. We should not be getting hurt. Grimmer should not be saying to owners like, well, we're not hurting him. This is just really important while we're watching ourselves. Other groomers, other people in our industry. Getting bit by dogs were flailing around and screaming and.

[00:18:17] It's not okay. It's not. Okay. It's 2023. We need to get away from it. Okay. Groomers are getting hurt and it's not your fault. Unless you have heard the information and decided, nah, I'm going to do it the way I want to. And then maybe it's going to be your fault, but I mentioned the last part. If.

[00:18:38] If we're allowing dogs to get hurt while we're grooming them. Okay. There's a point where we should say, listen, this isn't safe. And this is a haircut.

[00:18:48] Animal way. If it's going to be unsafe. But think about why do dogs have a behavior problem for grooming? Because they find it unpleasant, uncomfortable and, or scary. And if we use a lot of punishment, how to punishments work. Punishments work because the dog wants to avoid the punishment because the punishment is.

[00:19:10] Unpleasant uncomfortable or scary. So while maybe punishments work well for you in other aspects of your dog's life. They are not really going to help with a problem that's derived from unpleasant, uncomfortable or scary. 'cause that's just adding more. The chances of it, backfiring are huge, which is why we still have.

[00:19:33] God only knows how many groomers responded to that saying, well, of course we have to hold him down and let him scream. And they would, nobody even cares what that groomer got hurt. I care that the groomer got hurt and no, we do not need to hold him down while he screams. We do not, we should not. That is not humane treatment.

[00:19:51] I know, and it's not because anybody's being mean it's because this misguided idea that we just have to get it done. We do not. We have to teach these dogs how to be good for it. Teach them to be good for it. And once in a while, I hear things about. Well, I'd really like to see a groomer who could do that.

[00:20:11] And part of why in my intro, I always mix up which, which version of my credentials I list first. Because sometimes people think of me as a groomer. Oh, and I guess she does some training or they think of me as a trainer and maybe, maybe she knows a little bit about grooming. No, I am a grimmer and a trainer. I have been doing both.

[00:20:29] All along. Hand-in-hand. For decades. So, yes. I have been to a whole lot of nail trim rodeos. Where there's like tons of people packed on a dog, barely getting it done. I have been on those absolutely. And I would not have said that that dog was getting hurt. Because at that time, I wasn't thinking about the fact that that adrenaline rush, that dog's not going to feel pain until the next day.

[00:20:56] Okay. That adrenaline rush is going to stay in that dog's body for hours to days. And adrenaline rushes. Uh, that's to help a dog run away from things, fight things off, right? They're not feeling pain in that moment while that adrenaline is coursing through their body. I also would've said, well, we didn't hurt him.

[00:21:15] You know? Yeah. Yeah. We probably heard him. And I'm going to own that. I've been there. Right. That's why I want you guys to change this for yourselves. I don't get hurt by dogs all the time. My hands aren't sore from restraining dogs all day, because that's not how I get the job done. And we can talk to our owners about it.

[00:21:36] We can get owner compliance. 'cause train your dog is like brushing your dog. And we can say no. It's not about not doing nail trims and not doing perfect haircuts. It's about drawing a line in the sand as to how we get those done. And we have to spend some time teaching those dogs to be good. So that we can give them a lifetime.

[00:21:59] A really nice trims. And nail trims. A lifetime. This is the long game. Okay, so that in 2038. When this dog is 15. He's still good for nails. It doesn't make any sense to me to fight a dog over and over and over again all the time. So as another note, let's talk for a minute about the, you know, Yeah, I want to see what Chrissy does when a dog is flailing around and screaming. And how do you get it done when they're trying to bite you and they're screaming.

[00:22:30] And that's way over the top. And I want you to think about that's like saying, well, how do you get to the store? If all your, all your tires are flat? Like what you're going to have to fix the tires and why are they flat? Let's find out what flattened your tires. Maybe you have a, I don't know, nails in your driveway.

[00:22:47] I don't know. That's your driveway made of nails? Why do you have flat tires? Why are you getting a flat tire all the time? Are you just trying to add more air every single time. At some point you would say. Do I need new tires? Why, why does this keep happening? Okay. Another example of why does this keep happening? Imagine that every, every Monday morning you went into work and you're like, oh no,

[00:23:11] I'm sorry, charged. Like, yeah. Maybe you should be doing that before you leave Friday or Saturday, you know? But certainly love you come in every Monday morning to find your equipment isn't charged or you're out of shampoo. We would all say you need to get it together. Start planning better. So. When we have dogs that are fighting with us like that all the time.

[00:23:36] Yeah, that's not okay. From my point of view, it's ridiculous. Because I'm a trainer. Okay. So I just want to point out to you guys from a training perspective. You know, your, your colleagues in the dog training world are like, why do you keep doing it that way? If it never works?

[00:23:54] The Y. Why do we do it that way? Because it, for such a long time. The belief was that. Um, a dog is just going to have to get used to it. Yet. That's not how they get used to it. They do have to get used to it, but we have to spend time teaching them. We have to teach them that it's safe, teach them, they can trust us and then teach them how to behave.

[00:24:16] And that's the long game and it is humane. And it follows least intrusive, minimally adversive. Lima principles. Um, and it's a much, much, much more effective way to get the job done.

[00:24:32] If you want to know more about the classes that I teach or the private lessons that I do, you can find more information creatinggreatgroomingdogs.com or wholepetnh.com. I'm happy to work with any of you.