ep176-the-stern-no

[00:00:00] Episode 1 76. The stern, no. Ooh. A little word like no. Can bring up such strong feelings. And this week I want us to step away from our feelings and have an objective conversation about what it means to use a stern no.

[00:00:20] This is the Creating Great Grooming Dog Show. I'm Chrissy Nemeyer Smith. I'm a master groomer behavior specialist. I'm a certified professional groomer, a certified behavior consultant for canines and instructor at Whole Pet Grooming Academy, and the owner of Happy Critters in Nashua, New Hampshire. And this my friends and colleagues, is the show where grooming and training meet.

[00:00:46] So I wanna talk about the stern. No, I think that many of us were taught to respond to a dog's behavior, a dog's behavior problem. You know, a behavior we do not wish to see anymore By giving a stern no. And what I mean by that, it's usually sort of like, no, no. And maybe we hold their chin hair or hold their nose or hold their paw and we're just very sterning.

[00:01:09] No. And uh, many of us were taught that way. I was taught that way. Okay, so I'm gonna be totally upfront that I have done this an awful lot. Uh, now it brings about lots of emotions and it's very polarizing, which is kind of strange 'cause you would think, well, it doesn't really hurt the dog. Right. Um, on one side I think we have thoughts like he can't think it's okay.

[00:01:31] That behavior was unacceptable. We have to do something. Um, it doesn't hurt him. What's the big deal? Why are people so wishy-washy about the word? No. Okay, I hear you. I feel for you. And we're gonna address all these issues. Um, so that's one side of the debate. Now the other side of the debate is that, well.

[00:01:50] It would be mean. It's so negative. Why? Why would we do that? It's such a negative thing to do when we want them to be happy all the time. And I feel for you also. I hear you. Now. Here are some things that we might hear also. I think that sometimes people say, well, this is probably what they're using at home.

[00:02:10] You know, at home they're probably hearing no, so doesn't it make sense for us to use a tool like that? The owners say, no. Maybe you think, maybe you think that the problem with this dog is that no one at home does say no. I hear that one a lot too. The dog is spoiled or untrained. Naughty. Um, this is often where terms like fur baby and fur mommy get thrown around in a negative way, um, that this dog just needs to understand.

[00:02:36] No. And as a dog trainer, I can tell you, gosh, so many owners contact dog trainers and they're like, the first thing they write on their list is he needs to know what no means. But here is the thing about the stern. No. Is that, um, what we're actually doing is we're trying to tell a dog that I am not pleased with that.

[00:03:00] But let me ask you, as a groomer, if you are grooming a dog and their behavior is something you do not want, if we just jump directly to No, I said no. No. Let me ask you, have you ever seen a behavior improve? You might see them stop trying to bite you. They might even stop wiggling. But does that ever lead to a dog who feels like, oh, you are so nice, I'm safe here, and does it address the underlying issue?

[00:03:36] Why is this dog behaving this way? Why does this dog have an issue with it? What caused that behavior? We have to ask why. Why is the dog doing it? So I think it's really important for most of us to circle back and go, what is my purpose for a stern? No. If that's something you're still doing, um, what is its purpose?

[00:03:56] Um. I'm gonna say I very rarely turn to a stern. No. And when I do, it's a knee jerk reaction. An old habit that crops up. And every time it has happened, my husband's been right there going Thought we don't use no, because he'll catch me every time. Um. It's not because I feel like it's going to hurt the dog's feelings.

[00:04:21] Okay. That's where we need to talk about the opposite side of the debate that thinks it's negative and it's wrong and it's hurtful or harmful. I don't really believe that. I really don't think that it's going to hurt a dog or harm a dog. I don't think it's going to make them, you know, injured in some way.

[00:04:39] But let's talk about when we see a behavior that we don't want. We want to disrupt, we want to decrease, right? We have to ask, why is the dog doing it? Why? And in so many cases, and I know I've said it before, and I'll say it again, in so many cases, the problem that dogs have with dog grooming is different than the problem they have at other areas of their life.

[00:05:10] Okay. The problem with dog grooming is that they find it unpleasant, uncomfortable, and or scary and uncomfortable could be as far as it could hurt. No non groomers are out there going, what does that mean? Groomers hurt our dog. What I'm saying is, is that if a dog is really sore and we are grooming them.

[00:05:32] They are still sore the whole time and we're asking them to do an awful lot. Sometimes pain is involved with grooming and we try to minimize that and we try to work around it, but I'll tell you what, your 18-year-old dog with bad knees, who still gets groomed because he still has grooming needs, is probably experiencing discomfort and or pain through their grooming.

[00:05:55] I know that's a lot to take in everybody. Take a deep breath. Oh boy. Yeah. Yep. She said it. She said it. Some of these dogs are having, experiencing some sort of discomfort or pain due to age, due to health problems, due to joint problems, mobility issues, and we as groomers have to work around that through their entire lifetime.

[00:06:17] Like we don't stop grooming dogs at 12 because, oh, he has that knee problem. You know what, nevermind like that dog still needs baths. That dog still needs nail trimming. So we often are working with dogs who are experiencing discomfort. We know that a lot of dogs find grooming unpleasant. We know that they find it uncomfortable, and those are the behavior problems we see.

[00:06:39] Okay, so let me ask you, if you are finding something terribly unpleasant. We just sit around going, no, no, no. Which is even worse. Can I, let me stop here for a second. 'cause one of my biggest, biggest pet peeves, if you're gonna say no, and it's gonna be a stern, no, do not throw a question mark at the end of it.

[00:07:03] No. That little ooh at the end. No. No. Like that's a question. That's not even a stern. No. I don't know what the purpose is. If you're kind of doing No. Doing no. Um, yeah. Biggest puff peeve ever. All right. Um, we're right up there with crumbs in the butter. I know I'm weird, but I want you to think about that, that stern.

[00:07:27] No. Is that making you feel more comfortable if this were you? Is anything about being told how unacceptable your behavior is making you feel more comfortable? And we have to think about our goals here because our goal is a dog who is calm, comfortable, and cooperative. A dog who thinks that grooming isn't that bad, maybe they will never love.

[00:07:52] Okay. Maybe they won't. Maybe they'll always think it's tedious. It is tedious. It's a long process. Most dogs, the only time they've ever have anybody make micromanaging 'em like that is at the groomer. Even if they go for an hour long walk with their owners. It's a walk. It's different than an hour of focusing on a table in a tub with lots of equipment, right?

[00:08:15] It's tedious, it's tiring, it's physically demanding for them, and that stern, no kind of backfires on us. Okay? I was taught the stern, no. I've done it a lot and I gotta say, if we start changing our mindset to how can I help this dog have a better experience? Why is this dog behaving this way, then we have a much better chance of helping this dog learn to be good.

[00:08:44] That's the goal. Our goal is a dog who learns to be good. Just I don't want him to bite me or I don't want him to wiggle. Is the the dog training equivalent to owners saying, I don't want him to look like a poodle and I don't want him shaved. Well, what kind of haircut do you want? Well, not a poodle. Like, okay, we heard that.

[00:09:02] Well, I don't want him shaved. Okay, what are we doing with his ears today? You know, we have to ask all these questions to find out what the actual goal is in dog grooming. We do that by asking what kind of haircut they want, and then start talking about length and various areas and shapes. In dog training, we talk about what is your goal?

[00:09:21] What exactly do you want this dog to do on the table? Because if we don't, there are so many more options for mischief. There are so many other ways a dog could be doing it wrong, so much. Like there are so many ways you can give a haircut that owner doesn't like. Well, he's not shaved and he doesn't look like a poodle, so I did it exactly the way you wanted.

[00:09:42] We know that's not true. So if we want this dog to be calm, comfortable, and cooperative, suddenly the stern no, doesn't make as much sense and not because we're hurting a dog. But because we want them to understand how to behave and we want them to feel comfortable with the process, we want them to feel comfortable with us.

[00:10:04] How cool is that? So in the next part, we're gonna talk a little bit more about what the Stern know would do if it works, how it doesn't work sometimes, and that it's misunderstood. If you're enjoying the show, please remember to subscribe or follow. Tell all your grooming friends and if you want to contribute, you can go to creating great grooming dogs.com and click on the buy me a coffee link and donate.

[00:10:29] Thank you. So I think the Stern no is something that gets used an awful lot. Many of us were taught that way, and that's what I was saying earlier. Many of us were taught that way, but if instead. We're trying to focus on the why. I also want you to think about, there's in dog training, the humane hierarchy, and it's sort of a roadmap for when faced with a problem, when faced with a behavior issue that we do not want, that we want to change.

[00:10:59] The first thing we have to ask ourselves, and it's a roadmap. The first thing we ask ourselves is, is there a physical reason for this behavior? Is there a physical reason? So I want you to think about, maybe that's the, the dog with the, the sore foot that we're asking to stand on his sore foot while we work on the other one.

[00:11:19] Um, and that's why the behavior is happening. Would the stern know address that? No, because now we have to think about like, oh, wait a minute. That's making you sore. Let me see what I can do to alleviate that. What can I do to help you be physically more comfortable here? And if this is physically painful for me to be doing, how can I find a different way of doing it?

[00:11:44] Maybe. And I'm gonna give you some examples. For some dogs, having somebody hold them in their arms so that their legs can just dangle and we can trim their nails in, whatever. Position that dog wants to be in For many dogs, that's really helpful. I know some people use, um, the, the hammocks for that. I've only had limited experience with hammocks, but one dog thought it was great and another one thought it was horrific.

[00:12:08] So it has to, if we're gonna use a tool like that, it has to help the dog feel more comfortable if using a hammock actually helps the dog feel more comfortable so that their little legs can dangle and they can feel more comfortable while we. Move around them instead of them moving into positions we need them in, then go for it.

[00:12:28] Use it. It's all about helping the dog be more calm, comfortable, and cooperative. But if there is a physical reason for this behavior and we just started using, no, we, we could miss that. We could really easily miss that. So first step. Check and see if there is a physical reason. And some of those physical reasons could be, and throwing some examples out.

[00:12:52] It could be a puppy who is teething, you know, their gums are sore and we're working at their face and they're ah, ah, and sometimes they just get a little bit worried about it. They're teething. Their gums are sore. Their mouth is sore. Their face is sore. And sometimes that's the, you know, the reason why we're seeing the behavior problem that we're seeing.

[00:13:11] Sometimes we forget about things like teething. Um. Another thing about the physical body, we think about like the elderly dogs, but sometimes it's a dog with bad knee. You know, think about some of these dogs that we have with, um, very twisted front legs, right? Asking them to stand on three legs puts a lot more pressure on one of those twisted front legs, discomfort.

[00:13:34] Is often part of why a dog would have a behavior problem, and the stern node does not address that. So even if it was the thing you were taught to do first, I instead invite you to think first about, okay, is there a physical reason why this dog is being like this? Second thing that we go through with the the humane hierarchy is if there's a behavior problem, some behavior that we do not want to have to continue, what can we do to change this environment?

[00:14:05] Is there something in the environment that we can change? Now, let me give you some examples for that, because instead of going directly to Stern, no, what if we said, I think what I'm gonna do is book this dog for a quieter time of day. This dog is overwhelmed by the amount of animals in this room. If that's what's getting to them.

[00:14:25] If the environment is just way too much, maybe they are not a dog to bring in on a Saturday, right? Maybe they are. You know, nice couple quiet dogs on a Wednesday afternoon. Think about ways that we can make that experience easier for them by changing the environment. Um, if it's a matter of how much noise.

[00:14:45] Maybe a happy hoodie is enough for them to feel more comfortable with that noise. And I would consider that something in the environment like, okay, how can I decrease the sound level for you for this? Maybe it's a matter of using a dryer brush on their head instead of the high velocity dryer. That would be something environmental.

[00:15:02] That's me switching to a different tool. Maybe the dog prefers nail grinding instead of nail trimming. Think about all of the tools that we can maybe switch up and customize. The experience for this dog. No two dogs are alike. They all have their own opinions just like we do. So if we start looking at, okay, first, was there a health issue, a physical reason why this dog is behaving like this?

[00:15:27] Second, is there anything around me that I can change to make this easier for this dog today? While we teach something new, and that's step three. Step three is when we start getting into positive reinforcement. Step three is when we start getting into, can I teach you something new using positive reinforcement?

[00:15:45] And maybe that is quietly standing on a table. Maybe that is hopping into a tub on your own instead of trying to thrash and move away. See, the goal setting is a little bit different. Stand on a table quietly. Different than don't flail, don't thrash, don't alligator a roll. Um, stand on the table quietly would be a goal.

[00:16:08] Jump into the tub or put the front paws up and let me boost your backend into a tub, whatever that is. If we can also now at step three of the humane hierarchy, teach that with positive reinforcement. Now, I know that's a lot of stuff, but there are more steps in the humane hierarchy. This is a very short podcast, so I'm gonna stop at those.

[00:16:30] But let's talk about, um, what positive reinforcement really is. And here's your very, very quick tutorial on what's called the four quadrants of operant conditioning, the four quadrants. So first we have reinforcement. Reinforcement means the behavior stays the same or increases. So you see a behavior you really like and it's gonna increase.

[00:16:53] Or stay the same if it's being reinforced. Reinforcement behavior increases or stays the same. That could be quietly standing on a table. Ooh, hey, that's a great goal. Um, punishment is when a behavior decreases or ends. Decreases or ends is punishment. It's not about the emotions, it's not about how we feel about it.

[00:17:16] It's about how the behavior changes and if it changes at all. If the behavior does not change, you could have just been adding something pleasant or something unpleasant. You could have just changed your what you're doing and having no effect on the behavior at all. So what's positive and negative?

[00:17:35] Positive means something added. Like algebra something added, A plus sign added positive negative minus sign, like, like an algebra something removed. So often I'm hearing people talk about the stern no, as it's negative reinforcement. And it is not. It is not. It is positive punishment if and only if it actually decreases or ends the behavior.

[00:18:06] I know that's a little tricky, and it's a short podcast, so we're getting into it really quickly. If you go a stern, no, you're adding something. You're adding the, no, you've added something, and if the behavior decreases or ends, it was a punishment. Positive added punishment, decreased behavior. Okay. It's written up in grooming textbooks incorrectly everywhere.

[00:18:33] So just so you know, this is exactly what it means. But let me ask you something. If, um, if there was a physical problem for this dog, do we really think that that's a good way to decrease that behavior if we just ignore that physical problem and give that stern? No, I don't think so. I don't think so. And it's not about, is it mean?

[00:18:56] It's about, it doesn't really address the issue. The issue is important, but I'm gonna say after many, many years of doing stern no. And being in the room with someone who does lots of stern, no, it usually is someone who is saying this over and over and over again and seeing no result. So let me ask you.

[00:19:20] If the reason for the behavior problem is that a dog finds grooming, unpleasant, uncomfortable, and or scary, and our actions, our way of solving it is to incorporate more unpleasant, uncomfortable, or scary. If that behavior is not changing, we're just making it worse. We are just making this more uncomfortable, more unpleasant by being unpleasant.

[00:19:50] Frankly, the stern no is unpleasant. If it worked, that would be why it worked, because it's unpleasant. So this isn't a judgment call about whether or not it's mean. It's about is it serving your purpose? So for the people who really are, are convinced that that's the first thing you try. Does it serve your purpose?

[00:20:12] Do you usually do one stern? No. And your problem is, is resolved. And for some dogs, in some instances, that could be true and that is a perfectly fine use of the stern. No. However, for so, so many, it's something that gets chanted. Over and over and over again, and the groomer gets frustrated and the dog is becoming more frustrated, and we start saying things like, spoiled, untrained, naughty, you know, and that this dog is just needs to be trained.

[00:20:45] What's wrong with him? Right? Because it's just becoming increasingly unpleasant. Instead of looking at did the behavior decrease or end or not, did it have absolutely no effect on the behavior at all? And sometimes that's true of positive reinforcement. Also, if I add a cookie, if that dog is not actually increasing the behavior I wanted, maybe it was just adding something pleasant.

[00:21:12] The dog has no idea why. Okay. That's why we really have to look at. Is the behavior changing in the direction we thought we were trying to make it change? So the stern, no, like I said, it it, it's really polarizing. There are some who think that it's animal abuse and there are some who think it's abusive to never use it.

[00:21:34] But it's purpose is to get a behavior to decrease or end by incorporating unpleasantness. And my argument is. Grooming is already unpleasant, uncomfortable, and or scary, and I would like to avoid incorporating more unpleasantness. All right, so that's the big takeaway this week, and it's not a judgment call about people being mean or people being wishy-washy.

[00:22:04] It's about. Is the behavior changing? If you're enjoying the show, you can find it at creating great grooming dogs.com. You can find me on Facebook creating Great Grooming Dogs. Has a page and it has a group, and I would love to hear from you. Give me some ideas of what you would like me to talk about on the show.